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PODCAST

The Messy City Podcast

Kevin Klinkenberg

Embracing change, uncertainty and local initiative for our cities and towns kevinklinkenberg.substack.com

arts design

All Episodes

60:22

The Changing Face of Household Types

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/08/26

Mike Hathorne has been around the New Urbanism movement for over twenty years. That means he has that rare combination of idealism, practicality, and persistence. Nowadays, you can find Mike with Visionary Homes in Utah.While the principles of New Urbanism have guided his work for years, Mike has also been on the front lines trying to figure out how to get it all built. Like all of us, he’s had successes and failures. But that desire to connect to truly human values and needs continues to drive him

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64:17

From House Hacking to Building Success in Real Estate

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/08/19

If you’re fortunate and diligent, you’ll encounter people in your field that are just supremely knowledgable about the details, and willing to talk about them. Audrey Navarro, the Managing Partner of Clemons Real Estate in Kansas City, is one of those people. I’ve found Audrey to be incredibly nice and pleasant to talk with, but also very ruthless (in a good way) with the numbers and the realities of real estate and development.In this episode, we trace her path that started from a simple duplex

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57:56

Development is Harder Than You Think

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/07/29

You’re not going to find too many movies with developers as the hero. For most of the public, their opinion of developers is somewhere below Congress. And that’s saying something.I find that all unfortunate, since developers are the ones who build virtually everything in our world - our homes, our offices, our shops, our entertainment. And there’s a group of developers who have been undertaking honestly heroic efforts for two or three decases - those trying to build “new urbanist” or walkable

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57:32

Discussing Messy Cities on the Challenger Cities Podcast

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/07/22

From Iain, whose excellent site you can find at this link:The term 'messy' is a growing one when it comes to cities just now, and it's a refreshing one in what has for the last little while been the domain of the planner, who tends to see the world from the top down. But what makes cities, and indeed a lot of companies, so good is that they embrace what comes from the bottom up.In cities that means what's happening on the street, and how the people are shaping it. In companies it means the front

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56:39

Pay Attention to What is Happening in Memphis

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/07/15

Usually when a Kansas Citian talks about Memphis, it’s to discuss their bbq vs ours. And trust me, they do make some good ribs on Memphis. But today we are here to learn about housing and redevelopment. The City of Memphis has taken some solid steps in recent years to reform all manner of codes and processes to enable more and better housing options. John Zeanah joins me to discuss the specifics.There’s a lot in here for the policy wonks, and I’m here for it as well. But what I love the most is the

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54:29

Creating a Small Developer Ecosystem

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/07/08

Jed Byrne is a man of many hats, but what he really cares about is demystifying real estate development for ordinary people. Jed’s podcast, Dirt NC, focuses primarily on issues in North Carolina and especially the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill “Triangle” area. Earlier this year, Jed and a group of people from the local Chamber visited the Kansas City region on a mission to learn from each other. I’m not sure they talked much basketball (Kansas - the birthplace of North Carolina basketball as the saying

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63:29

The Past and Future of Retailing

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/07/01

One of the critical dilemmas of our time for people in retailing is, how do you get people to put down their devices and come out to shop in the real world? Jaime Izurieta of Storefront Mastery, talks about how shopping has become commoditized, and what to do about it. We discuss how to create an experience that makes people want to come out, and how businesses are adapting to the new reality.Stay tuned through the whole episode, as we also get into an interesting discussion on money, Bitcoin and

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42:33

A Symphony of Summer Advice

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/06/24

Today’s episode isn’t exactly Coughlin’s Laws, nor is it my whole list of Klinkenberg’s Rules, but it is full of some life advice I’d like to share for the dog days of Summer. I’ve long enjoyed solving problems of all kinds, and trying to help my community progress. But it isn’t easy, and it takes the right mindset to have success. Whether you are working in development, planning, policy change or just trying to fix problems generally, I hope this offers something useful for you.Key link: Symphony

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58:29

Starting a new Architecture School, Rooted in the...

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/06/10

What's it like to start an architecture school from scratch? That’s a question that has run through my mind for years. So much of the education of architects and designers is, at best, misguided. As I discussed on my appearance on The Aesthetic City podcast, it’s also very cult-like and sends people down roads that aren’t terribly productive nor do they produce beautiful buildings that the public enjoys.John Haigh, who’s the Chair of the Architecture program at Benedictine College, in Atchison,

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66:11

State-Level Code Reforms for More and Better Housing

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/06/03

Why is the production of housing, especially new housing in big cities, so expensive? Why doesn’t inclusionary zoning make our cities more affordable? How can cities amend the building code itself to help in housing production, and even make for better quality apartments?To answer these questions and more, I had a long and code-nerdy chat with Emily Hamilton. Emily is the Senior Research Fellow and Director of the Urbanity Project at Mercatus Center, George Mason University. That’s a long title and

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58:30

Bootstrapping Small Scale Affordable Housing

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/05/27

Terrell Jolly didn’t start out making it his mission in life to become a small-scale developer. But somewhere along the way, from Detroit to Kansas City, he made it happen. And boy is KC lucky to have him.TJ, as most people know him, is a unique guy in this town, and has a very unique process. But should it be unique, or should what he does be much more normal? He talks through how he bootstrapped his way into becoming a developer, how he works with Missouri’s Abandoned Housing Act in neighborhoods

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59:33

Housing as Economic Development

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/05/06

“The solution to the housing problem is more housing. Getting there is the hard part.” So says my friend Dennis Strait, now retired Principal of multistudio in Kansas City. Dennis is a planner, architect, landscape architect, civic volunteer and frequently wise counsel on all matters related to city-building. Dennis has been lately working on his notion of housing as an economic development strategy. That sounds logical - entirely too logical. But it’s often not how people in the world of economic

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57:16

Will Your Town Revitalize or Will it Die?

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/04/29

Not long ago, I started noticing these long and interesting regular Facebook posts coming through my feed by an account named “Revitalize or Die.” Often compelling rants on towns, economic development and planning, this was right in my wheelhouse. I like people with actual thoughtful (and sharp) opinions, especially when they cut to the core of issues I’m familiar with. For example, “growth doesn’t always equal improvement.” And, “we have a lot of institutions and agencies that haven’t kept pace

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65:59

Why You Should Make Friends with a Banker

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/04/22

Many of us don’t like to think too much about banking and money until we REALLY need to. As an architect, I’m as guilty as anyone as not taking the time to think through the financial side, and to also get easily intimidated by it.But it doesn’t have to be this way, truly. Money is just a tool, like any other tool, and it’s not hard to learn how to use it and to meet people who can help you become successful with money.Landmark National Bank President & CEO Abby Wendel joins us, along with

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64:25

When Principles Meet the Real World

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/04/15

Patrick Tuohey is the Policy Director and co-founder of a think tank called the Better Cities Project. While his own views are politically right of center, the organization is non partisan and aims to give cities advice on the basics of good governance. He’s also an unabashed lover of cities, which is something not common in “Urbanist” circles.We have a wide-ranging discussion, though largely focused on small government, free market principles and how Patrick sees things working or not in cities. We

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59:33

Are properties ever really obsolete?

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/04/08

Rodney Dangerfield once famously said, “golf courses and cemeteries are the biggest wastes of prime real estate.” We won’t touch cemeteries in this episode, but we do talk about golf courses. Monte Anderson joins me as we discuss different ways of looking at so-called “obsolete” properties. As a teaser: Monte shares with me what I think is one of the most brilliant ideas I’ve heard about how to work with old or declining churches. You must listen to understand it.The whole discussion reminded me of

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41:53

It Is What It Is - Or Not

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/04/01

We often don’t realize that the “way things are” is just a reflection of some radical change that happened in a previous era. While I’m a firm believer that aspects of human nature haven’t really changed much through the millennia, it is true that we’ve shaped, reshaped, and reshaped our societies over and over again. And the most visible evidence of that change is our cities and towns.Today’s discussion is about looking past the way things are, in many dimensions, and realizing that it is possible

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64:51

Be Great with your Pawns

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/03/26

Rik Adamski is a man of many hats. But first and foremost, he’s someone that cares deeply about the people side of urban planning. So often, planners, architects and developers get mired in the technical side of building community. And of course, we have to, because there’s a lot that requires our attention.But in this episode, Rik reminds us that planning is really about people, and about helping people make their own place better. The reason we fall in love with a place is more about what the

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56:29

Do You Live in a Fragile Neighborhood?

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/03/18

From the earliest days of my interest in urban planning, I became very interested in the overlap between design and culture. By that I mean, how cities shape human interaction, and how human interaction shapes cities. Why are some places successful when others aren’t, even when they have similar design and planning features? Why do some communities seem so tight and together, when others do not? Is it all just a design problem, as I’ve been taught?In fact, the obvious answer it’s not just a design

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70:34

Creating a (mostly) car-free new town in Costa Rica

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/03/11

I had the pleasure of meeting Charles Brewer right when he was starting to get interested in becoming a real estate developer. This was after a very successful short career in the dot-com world, as he was a founder of Mindspring. When he exited, he became interested in New Urbanism, and decided to shift his career toward the building of new, walkable communities.Twenty-plus years later, we get a chance to talk about his journey. And, we get to spend a lot of time discussing Las Catalinas, his

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