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PODCAST

Just Say No To The DSO

Dentistry is experiencing an attack by well-funded corporations who want to own the work of each dentist’s hands. While the promises of wealth and ease DSO’s present to owner-dentists appear enticing, experience shows the reality is very different. Just Say No to the DSO is a deep dive podcast for dentists in all stages of their career. It is especially for those who are looking at whether or not the option to sell to a DSO is the right choice. Our expert hosts, Bob Spiel, MBA and Nate Williams,

health & fitness medicine

All Episodes

52:42

Season 3 Episode 8 - Dr Aaron Swapp from Swapp...

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2025/03/17

Nate is back traveling around the country in order to get the best interviews with the best professionals. We were put in touch with Dr Aaron Swap in order to have a great discussion on if...with a big if...DSOs are ever worth it? As well, how do things apply to orthodontics and what is really needed to run an amazing practice? Tune in for another great episode.

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71:30

Season 3 Episode 7 - Scott Haley From Premier...

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2025/03/07

Full steam ahead with no going back! The show is picking up incredible momentum thanks to our great listeners. Nate grabs another incredible guest this week in Scott Haley from Premier Orthodontics Practices. Scott has heard about the great work being done on Just Say No and wanted to hear it directly from the sources.

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71:59

Season 3 Episode 6 - John Van Leeuwen Interview

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2025/02/28

How do professionals begin and interact with the dental industry? So many great people from various backgrounds are attracted to this amazing field and we have one of the best today. John Van Leeuwen joins the crew remotely today for an awesome interview.

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60:48

Season 3 Episode 5 - Jason Wood Interview Part 2

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2025/02/21

Here the amazing conclusion to the conversation between attorney Jason Wood and Nate as they disect where deals seem to stop making sense.

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48:09

Season 3 Episode 4 - Jason Wood Interview Part 1

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2025/02/21

Just Say No to the DSO is coming off of some hot interviews and following up with experts all over the country to go over the details and discerne between fact and fiction. Nate sits down with attorney Jason Wood in order to dive deep into DSO deals. Here the amazing back and forth and find out where they agree and where they don't. Part 2 will follow shortly.

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44:33

Season 3 Episode 3 - DSO Deal Case Study

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2025/02/17

After the Chip interview, Bob and Nate breakdown an actual DSO deal offer in order to get a better idea and understanding at what the tangible numbers look like. We wish we were making this stuff up…but we aren’t.

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63:38

Season 3 Episode 2 - The Response to the Chip...

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2025/01/20

After our amazing interview with Chip Fichtner, we've let the dust settle a bit and had time to digest as well as think over what was said. Bob and Nate discuss what iDSOs are really offering dentists and how the math cannot compute.

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86:36

Season 3 Episode 1 - Interview with Chip Fichtner

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2025/01/20

We are back for an amazing start to season 3. Bob and Nate sit down with one of the biggest iDSO brokers in the world, Chip Fichtner. This is an amazing interview to showcase what the otherside is thinking and trying to sell.

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29:22

Season 2 Episode 9 - Who is Looking Out for You?

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2024/07/15

In this final episode of Season 2, Bob Spiel and Nate Williams emphasize the need fordentists to critically assess DSO offers and understand the financial biases at play thatdrive toward consolidation – while leaving dentists in the dust. Bob and Nate aim toeducate dentists and empower them to make decisions that align with their bestinterests and long-term goals. Teasing Season 3, they promise deeper exploration through interviews with dentists who have resisted DSOs or exited them, sharing their

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23:44

Season 2 Episode 8 - A Summary of Season 2

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2024/07/06

Get ready for a candid and insightful chat as Bob Spiel and Nate Williams summarizeSeason 2 of "Just Say No to the DSO" – foreshadowing the end of Season 2 (althoughthere will be one more bonus episode #9 coming.) In this episode, they dive deep intothe nitty-gritty of selling dental practices to Dental Service Organizations (DSOs),offering up wisdom, wit, and a healthy dose of skepticism.

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23:37

Season 2 Episode 7 - Just Say No to DSO: Analyzing...

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2024/06/14

Bob and Nate encouraging dentists to reject DSO sales pitches and maintain ownership of their practices for long-term success. Reiterating the importance of staying engaged in their work and understanding that DSOs won't overpay or make practice ownership easier.

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20:48

Season 2 Episode 6 - DSO Contract “Gotcha’s”

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2024/05/29

In this episode of “Just In this episode of "Just Say No to the DSO," hosts Bob Spiel andNate Williams dive deep into the subject of DSO sale and employment contracts, andthe surprises that dwell inside each.The discussion underscores how DSO contracts are driven by dollar signs and theDSO’s need to exert control in the business relationship.

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32:50

Season 2 Episode 5 - The Truth about DSO Ownership...

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2024/05/16

In this episode of Just Say No to the DSO hosts Bob Spiel andNate Williams dive deep into the subject of ownership in a DSO, or what is called“Equity”. They describe why Equity is a self-made target that allows DSO’s todramatically overstate their value, which leads dentists to believe their ownership isworth much more than it is.The discussion underscores the lack of transparency among DSO valuations, and whyself-defined Equity is open to abuses. Ultimately, the episode aims to empower dentiststo

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38:06

Season 2 Episode 4 - Do DSOs Actually Overpay (Part 2)

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2024/05/08

In this episode of "Just Say No to the DSO" hosts Bob Spiel and Nate Williams dive deepinto the deceptive tactics employed by Dental Service Organizations (DSOs) to luredentists into unfavorable agreements. Through real-life examples and a critical analysisof a $29 million DSO offer, they highlight the hidden costs and risks that dentists oftenoverlook in pursuit of financial gain.The discussion underscores the importance of diligence and transparency in evaluatingDSO deals, urging dentists to seek

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24:58

Season 2 Episode 3 - Do DSOs Actually Overpay for...

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2024/04/26

The podcast is episode three of Season 2 for “Just Say No to the DSO." Hosted by BobSpiel and co-host Nate Williams, it discusses reasons why dental practice ownersshould avoid selling to Dental Support Organizations (DSOs).This podcast episode is a warning to dentists who are thinking about taking DSO deals.The hosts do a deep dive into a $20 million DSO deal and reveal how deceptive thesedeals can be. They stress the importance of being critical and skeptical of these deals.The goal of the podcast

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21:06

Season 2 Episode 2 - What is EBITDA, and Why do DSO’s...

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2024/04/16

In this podcast episode of "Just Say No to the DSO," hosts Bob Spiel and Nate Williams discuss the importance of dentists maintaining control of their practices rather than selling to Dental Service Organizations (DSOs). They emphasize that smart business people don't overpay for practices and that DSOs are adept at making dentists think they're getting a great deal when, in reality, they may be giving away their practices for little to no value. The hosts explain the concept of EBITDA (earnings

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29:31

Season 2 Episode 1 - Are we still convinced to Just...

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2024/04/09

The podcast is episode one of Season 2 for “Just Say No to the DSO"; Hosted by Bob Spiel andco-host Nate Williams, it discusses reasons why dental practice owners should avoid selling toDental Support Organizations (DSOs). Bob Spiel has an MBA and is a practice managementconsultant, while Nate Williams is a dental CPA. They have both been in dentistry for over 15years.Key points discussed: Introduction: Bob and Nate introduce themselves, emphasizing theirexperience in dentistry and financial

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52:39

Episode 7 – Season 1 Wrap Up and FAQs

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2023/09/13

Concluding Season 1, the conversation focuses on the complexities and challenges associated with dentists selling to Dental Service Organizations (DSOs). Many dentists who engage in these DSO partnerships find themselves literally "paying back" their earnings over extended periods, without reaping any significant benefits unless their DSO is gobbled up (i.e. acquired) by a larger DSO. This model has an alarming turnover rate, with about 70% of engaged dentists leaving within the first two years,

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39:32

Episode 6 – The DSO Gold Rush: All that Glitters…

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2023/09/13

In this episode, the hosts discuss the nuances and complexities of joining Dental Service Organizations (DSO’s), particularly highlighting the illusion they create of community and unity. Although these groups promote the idea of collective strength, many doctors, after joining, still find themselves feeling isolated in their individual practices, realizing that the promised unity doesn't quite materialize. The allure of equity is another theme, with many doctors being tempted to sell their

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42:14

Episode 5 – The Medical Mess: Are DSO’s Pulling...

Just Say No To The DSO ·

2023/09/13

In this podcast episode, our hosts dive into the distinctions between the medical and dental industries. As the discussion unfolds, Nate interviews Bob drawing on his experience in medicine as a hospital and surgical center CEO, highlighting the trajectory in which medical doctors have found themselves, where doctors have lost almost all control over their careers, primarily becoming indirect government employees working for large hospital systems. They sound an alarm on the risk that if DSO’s are

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