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PODCAST

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact? Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts,

business management

All Episodes

20:41

Testing Everything: How HashiCorp Rewrote the People...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/07/17

For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan explore compensation testing, remote culture scaling, leadership transparency, and AI adoption challenges through the analytical lens of Christine Centa, HashiCorp's Chief People Officer.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to

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31:25

Unpacking the Windsurf-Google Deal with Carta's Peter...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/07/15

Emergency pod: Returning guest Peter Walker (Carta's Head of Insights) analyze the controversial Windsurf deal, where Google's acqui-hire left non-founder employees without equity payout. They unpack the deal, reference Character AI's precedent, and explore how AI-era deals increasingly prioritize top researchers over broader employee bases, fundamentally changing startup risk calculations*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire

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16:10

The 5 Layers of Business Literacy Every HR Leader...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/07/10

For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan examine the persistent challenge of HR professionals becoming genuine business leaders. Jeff Diana Investor/Entrepreneur, and former CPO of Calendly, join in to dissect tactical strategies for developing business acumen, moving beyond traditional people operations to drive meaningful organizational impact through financial literacy and strategic thinking.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor

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13:39

Bolt Says They Killed HR, But the Work Doesn’t Go Away

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/07/08

Kelli and Nolan critically examine Bolt CEO and Founder Ryan Breslow's announcement that they eliminated their HR department in favor of "People Ops", questioning whether this rebranding actually improves efficiency or just represents clickbait without meaningful organizational change. They explore the tension between removing perceived bureaucratic middlemen and maintaining necessary workplace oversight.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and

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23:21

Equity Negotiation: The Ultimate Guide to Not Getting...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/07/03

A few weeks ago, we started bringing back essential Heretics 101 content. Today we're revealing insider secrets of equity negotiation that could save you millions. Colleen McCreary recommended this episode, and the stakes couldn't be higher.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock

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28:27

Why 50% of CEO-HR "Marriages" End in Divorce with...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/07/01

Today's episode examines friend of the pod/recurring guest Colleen McCreary's "CEO-VP of HR divorce rate" concept, sparked by a VC's call about his CEO's failed six-month relationship with a seasoned HR leader. Colleen, Kelli, and Nolan explore why traditional interviews miss critical compatibility issues, the tendency to let conflicts fester rather than address them early, and essential strategies for either salvaging these crucial partnerships or ending them professionally.*Email us your questions

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49:10

Zapier’s Bold Bet: Every New Hire Must Be...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/26

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli get a behind-the-scenes look at Zapier's AI strategy with CPO Brandon Sammut. He demos some seriously impressive AI tools his team built—interview prep agents, automated workflows, performance tracking—and explains why they require AI skills from every new hire at their 730-person company. Make sure you also watch the video version on Substack and YouTube for the demo done by Brandon on Zapier Agent use cases.*Email us your questions or topics for

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17:43

AI's Impact on Entry-Level Jobs

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/24

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan examine the contested impact of AI on entry-level employment, featuring HR articles debating whether traditional junior roles are disappearing or evolving upward. The discussion explores practical AI implementation challenges, organizational inertia, and real-world examples of companies leveraging custom AI solutions for recruitment and decision-making processes.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor

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32:12

The Dirty Secrets of Executive Departures

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/19

Over the next few weeks, we're bringing you some Heretics 101 content - important refreshers on taboo topics that are core to navigating the CPO seat.For today’s episode, we're revisiting an early conversation about how to fire C-suite executives that we had with CJ Gustafson from the Run the Numbers podcast. If you're in this business long enough, you're either going to have to fire an executive, or you're going to be the one getting fired. That's just reality. What started as a simple question

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33:42

How To Actually Use AI Agents, With Samy Aumar of Qonto

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/17

Today we're sharing an episode of the 10x Recruiting podcast which features guest Samy Aumar, the People Systems Excellence Manager at Qonto, shares his actual AI workflows live with Nolan Church and Siadhal Magos (CEO of Metaview). The goal of this series is to demonstrate practical and attainable AI implementation, especially for those executives at companies with AI mandates (like Shopify and Fiverr). This episode highlights Samy's use of AI agents which can be built without coding skills in just

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28:59

Your Next Hire Might Be a Deepfake with Danielle...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/12

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church talk to Danielle Mathis, Vice President, Global Talent & HRBP of Clari, revealing how fraudsters orchestrated an elaborate recruitment scam, deceiving 12 job seekers with fake offers while harvesting their personal data. The shocking conversation exposes the dark reality of deepfake candidates infiltrating hiring processes and why traditional recruitment methods are dangerously obsolete in our AI-manipulated world.*Email us your questions or topics for

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41:40

Executive Search is Broken — Here’s What Executive...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/10

This episode of HR Heretics explores executive search from both sides: being recruited and managing recruitment. Neil Frye, former CPO at Google and Dropbox, and current Chief People Officer at Dotmatics, sits down with Nolan Church and discuss withdrawal strategies, internal versus external search criteria, conscious leadership frameworks, style compatibility, and treating job searches like mutual acquisitions rather than one-sided selections.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan:

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59:03

I Demoted Myself Twice at Meta - And It Made Me...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/29

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk to Cynthia "Baz" Shrauner, former Meta HR executive and current Head of People at Electric Capital. Baz discusses her unconventional career move of voluntarily demoting herself twice to focus on work she genuinely enjoyed rather than traditional leadership roles. She candidly explores the tension between ego and fulfillment, Meta's hiring excesses during COVID and subsequent layoffs, and the complexities of DEI initiatives in

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20:18

Why Greylock's Glen Evans Says Your All-Nighter...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/27

This segment examines the resurgence of "996" work culture (9 AM to 9 PM, six days weekly) among Silicon Valley's early-stage founders. Nolan analyzes the tension between demanding work schedules and talent attraction, drawing from Glen Evans' LinkedIn critique. He argues these intensive cultures suit certain life stages and career priorities, emphasizing that both high-intensity startups and work-life balance approaches can coexist as conscious trade-offs rather than moral imperatives.NOTE: Kelli

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46:33

Why HR Should Never Lead Training: The Case for...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/22

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Fidelma Butler, Chief People Officer at Couchbase, a NoSQL cloud database platform company. They talk about how to build effective L&D programs by defining clear leadership standards, focusing resources on senior leaders, and integrating learning into daily work instead of traditional training sessions.Fidelma emphasizes that L&D needs to be agile, continuously evolving, and solve actual business problems rather than existing

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44:02

The Fractional Executive Myth with Sally Thornton,...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/15

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Sally Thornton, founder of Forshay. Sally shares insights on the fractional executive placement business she's built since 2011. Thornton emphasizes that successful fractional work requires consultative skills, boundary management, and rapid trust-building rather than simply scoped part-time arrangements. If you're thinking of going fractional, this is a must-listen discussion.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli &

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16:38

Is It Ever Okay to be Late to Meetings?

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/13

Kelli and Nolan explore the art of professional boundary-setting and etiquette. After Nolan shared a LinkedIn post about declining a meeting with a founder who didn't show up on time to their scheduled call, the hosts examine the delicate balance between protecting one's time and extending grace to others. Their conversation delves into how personal boundaries, stress levels, and professional status influence our responses to professional missteps*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan:

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38:40

Creating the 'Airbnb for Offsites': Jared Kleinert on...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/08

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Jared Kleinert, founder of Offsite.com, who shares insights on planning effective team retreats that transform from "nice-to-have" into strategic "must-have" events for remote and hybrid companies. Kleinert emphasizes that successful offsites require intentional planning with clear objectives, arguing that thoughtfully designed retreats drive organizational alignment, build trust between teammates, and provide measurable

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27:39

The $8M DoorDash Mistake: Equity Offers

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/06

In this candid "HR Heretics" segment, Nolan and Kelli expose the hidden risks of equity compensation, including Nolan's $8 million DoorDash missed opportunity. They reveal essential questions about share counts, strike prices, and exercise windows that can make or break startup wealth. Their message: equity details are negotiable, but education is your responsibility—not the company's.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at

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18:03

Tobi Lütke Wants Shopify Employees to Use AI...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/01

In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church explore the emerging trend of "CEO AI mandates" from the likes of Tobias Lütke and Aaron Levie at Box.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving

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