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PODCAST

The Messy City Podcast

Kevin Klinkenberg

Embracing change, uncertainty and local initiative for our cities and towns kevinklinkenberg.substack.com

arts design

All Episodes

68:53

A Conversation with Dhiru Thadani

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/03/04

It’s truly a rare thing in life to run across people that are uber-talented, thoughtful, and just fantastic human beings. Dhiru Thadani is one of those rare people. An architect, urban designer, author, teacher, and prolific sketch artist, Dhiru has been involved in the New Urbanism movement since the earliest days. He’s written multiple books about the famous new town of Seaside, Florida, and we spend a bit of time rehashing some history on this episode for those that are unaware.One of my most

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56:39

Designing Beauty in Housing, by Being Intentional

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/02/18

The world of architecture is full of megalomanicas, wanna-be stars, and also a whole lot of good people just grinding out beautiful work outside the spotlight. One thing I enjoy with my little platform is shining a light on some of the people that do that beautiful work, and rarely get national attention.Don Powers, of Union Studio in Providence, Rhode Island, has one of those firms. Union Studio has grown over the years to do a lot of different kinds of work, but what I really wanted to focus on

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70:22

Building Culture in Oklahoma

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/02/11

Austin Tunnell is one of the shining stars of a new generation of designer/builders for creative smaller projects, and he also happens to work in the world of mass masonry construction. In this episode, we talk about his journey from accountant to mason and beyond, with his really cool company called Building Culture.Austin now lives and works in the Oklahoma City area, and he’s aggressively expanding his scope with a new project called The Townsend. Audio doesn’t really do these projects justice

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69:40

Exploring Small Scale vs Large Scale Development

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/01/28

It’s not often you run across people in the development world that have deep knowledge in both the smallest scales of projects and the biggest. The industry, like many, is very bifurcated. People who do small projects tend to keep doing small projects. People who work on really large projects tend to keep doing that for their careers.Joe Perry, who works as his day job as the Vice President of Development for PortKC, has had one solid foot in both worlds for his entire career. We talk about what

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51:25

Boomerang to Help Your Hometown

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/01/21

“Just do it. Do it as quickly as you can.” That’s the advice of architect Doug Moss, who came to doing small-scale development projects after working for three decades as an architect. Doug left small-town Texas to pursue a career in New York, and boomeranged back several years ago to pursue his dreams as a developer. Now living in Austin, Doug has a healthy side gig doing small projects in Taylor, Texas, where he grew up.Doug and I met during the Small-Scale Developer Forum, which is a group Jim

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67:47

Is Your Town a Bitterness Factory or a Hope Factory?

The Messy City Podcast ·

2025/01/07

Allen County, Kansas is not a place most people will be familiar with, but the story is one you’ve probably heard before. Located in southeast Kansas, an hour and a half from the nearest major city, it features much that’s typical of rural America. Iola, the county seat, is a city of 5,300 people. It has a classic town square and lies at the junction of a couple of state highways. The beautiful Flint Hills and its majestic cattle ranches are not far away.But after the community lost its hospital in

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56:34

How to be a Small Developer that Makes a Big Impact

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/12/31

Jesse Russell and Ryan Andrews fit the profile of successful small developers. That is, they had no experience at all before trying it, almost no money, but have a ton of passion and creativity. Jesse and Ryan discuss how they came from the worlds of tv show production and finance to create a small development business in beautiful Bend, Oregon. They now focus primarily on cottage-style housing and unique, communal projects.Beyond their projects, what is incredibly fascinating is their story of

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48:05

A Conversation with Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/12/24

Mayor David Holt, far younger than me, has an impressive resume for any big-city Mayor. He’s been elected overwhelmingly twice, and his city is clearly on the rise. If you’re not familiar with what’s going on in Oklahoma, this is a chance at some insight.Moving out of a dark period in the city’s history in the early 1990s, Oklahoma City took it upon itself to pursue a dramatic makeover. Every city is a work in progress, but what’s been accomplished in the thirty years is remarkable. Mayor Holt and I

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48:05

Can Design Charrettes Teach Us How to Fix Broken...

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/12/18

It’s an intriguing irony that we live in the managerial age, with more managers than ever, and yet so much in our society is so poorly managed. But what can be done? Is it just an inevitable fact of modern life?In this episode, I break down my experience using the design charrette process in planning and architecture. And, I discuss the lessons learned from years of creating these very successful processes. Can this unique approach to problem-solving help us better manage our cities, towns and

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63:58

The many virtues of urban courtyard living

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/12/03

If you’ve traveled much to countries outside of the US, you frequently see a type of building that sits right up on the street, but has a landscaped courtyard space behind it. Instead of the ubiquitous American form of street-front yard-building-back yard, this type of building lacks a front yard in exchange for park-like spaces in the interior. As architects, we call these a variety of names, from courtyard buildings to perimeter blocks and on and on.Alicia Pederson has come to Twitter/X and

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46:17

Building the Not-Quite Missing Middle

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/11/26

In the urbanism and planning world, we talk a lot about Missing Middle Housing. Rightfully so, since it’s a critical element that helps a community succeed and provide the total range of housing options. And, it’s historically what we used to build a LOT of, before the advent of zoning and modern development codes.Hal Shapiro of Real Property Group in Overland Park, KS, talks with us about his unique niche and take on working in this field. Hal started on the lending side of the equation, and

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63:47

How to Hack Your Life

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/11/05

Stop what you’re doing, and listen to this episode. Trust me, it’s worth it.I came across Joe Jimenez by way of Coach Carson, who has interviewed him twice. Joe lives in Kalispell, Montana, and now owns a business called Switchback Suites. Joe and I discuss his interest in the FIRE movement, (FIRE = Financial Independence, Retire Early) and how he eventually translated that into his own world. A key piece has been using house hacking to get into real estate investing, and to as he says, “play life

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43:12

Turning love of your town into a development crusade

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/10/29

Before this episode, I knew nothing about Mineral Wells, TX. Now, i’m interested to visit. Mineral Wells is a small, historic resort town west of Fort Worth. It’s the sister city of Hot Springs, Arkansas. And our guest’s family has been on the forefront to save it from recent decline.For me, this, what Macy Nix Alexander relates to me is how people who truly love their place can be the change that helps turn its fortunes around. This is a remarkable tale that can be relatable to all manner of

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64:59

Getting to Affordable Infill Development

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/10/22

Eric Kronberg, of Kronberg Urbanists + Architects, is a wealth of knowledge for people wanting to truly understand the realities of new construction in cities. First off, it’s Kronberg with a long o, not as I initially pronounced it. Apologies to Eric.Eric and I talk about his work in missing middle housing, working in development in Atlanta, and the opportunities and perils of doing infill new housing. TLDR: it ain’t easy, but there are solutions. A couple of great takeaways I had from this episode

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41:46

Travel Lessons

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/10/08

So-called “urbanists” tend to travel to foreign lands and come back with the obvious takeaways: foreign cities good, American cities bad. I get that. I understand the impulse. I’ve done it myself, so who am I to judge? But let’s suppose for a minute we put that impulse on pause, and ask, what can we learn that can be applied quickly and inexpensively to American cities? If we look past the charm of thousand-year old human settlements, are there other lessons worth learning? I explore this, and have

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58:58

How Does a Small Developer Actually Make Money?

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/09/03

Monte Anderson of Neighborhood Evolution and Options Real Estate in Duncanville, Texas joins me to talk about extremely practical matters: making money in real estate. That is, as a small developer, how is it actually done? What are the pros and cons of different approaches, such as buying and holding vs selling?We start this by discussing a YouTube video from The Real Estate God. Yes, that’s the real channel. Titled, “The best way to 3x your money in 2024,” the video is a good jumping off point for

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47:48

Cities and Parents: Let's Get Real About What Matters

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/08/27

Truth is, I wish we talked a lot more about making cities as kid-friendly as possible. The topic is often overlooked. That’s why it was fascinating to see Derek Thompson’s article, “The Urban Family Exodus Is a Warning For Progressives” get so much traction. He clearly touched a nerve.Today, I give my take in this solo podcast. As a father, as someone that loves cities, and someone that is in fact deeply concerned about the trendlines, I share my observations. This one gets a little personal. Ground

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66:15

Exploring the Mechanics of an Architect’s First Small...

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/08/20

We travel to the beautiful Pacific Northwest this week to talk with architect Cary Westerbeck. Cary lives and works in Bothell, Washington, a northern suburb of Seattle. He traces his path from being a bicycle mechanic to architect, developer and even Planning Commission member.One of the really cool things about this episode is hearing Cary take me step by step through his process to build the Fir Street Lofts. This size of project, 3 apartments and one retail space, is the kind of project that

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60:12

Jim Heid and the Small-Scale Developer Forum

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/08/13

Abby Newsham and I have some fun with a joint podcast this week, as we host Jim Heid. Jim runs the Small Scale Developer Forum, and has a new book called “Building Small: A Toolkit for Real Estate Entrepreneurs, Civic Leaders, and Great Communities.” He spent some time in Kansas City while preparing to host his next forum here in October. Registration is open now!Jim is a wealth of great information for emerging developers. A landscape architect by trade, he came to development mid-career. He shares

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60:21

Missouri's Favorite Topic: KC vs St Louis

The Messy City Podcast ·

2024/08/06

This week, we take a little different tack and explore a time-worn Missouri rivalry: Kansas City vs St Louis. I invite two born-and-raised St Louisans, Abby Newsham and Jason Carter-Solomon to explore what is working and what is not with these two cities and metros. These two regions dominate this part of the Midwest, but have entirely different cultures and growth trajectories. If you go back far enough to Joel Garreau’s “Nine Nations of North America” you may remember that he labeled Kansas City

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