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PODCAST

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact? Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts,

business management

All Episodes

49:10

Zapier’s Bold Bet: Every New Hire Must Be...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/26

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli get a behind-the-scenes look at Zapier's AI strategy with CPO Brandon Sammut. He demos some seriously impressive AI tools his team built—interview prep agents, automated workflows, performance tracking—and explains why they require AI skills from every new hire at their 730-person company. Make sure you also watch the video version on Substack and YouTube for the demo done by Brandon on Zapier Agent use cases.*Email us your questions or topics for

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17:43

AI's Impact on Entry-Level Jobs

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/24

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan examine the contested impact of AI on entry-level employment, featuring HR articles debating whether traditional junior roles are disappearing or evolving upward. The discussion explores practical AI implementation challenges, organizational inertia, and real-world examples of companies leveraging custom AI solutions for recruitment and decision-making processes.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor

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32:12

The Dirty Secrets of Executive Departures

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/19

Over the next few weeks, we're bringing you some Heretics 101 content - important refreshers on taboo topics that are core to navigating the CPO seat.For today’s episode, we're revisiting an early conversation about how to fire C-suite executives that we had with CJ Gustafson from the Run the Numbers podcast. If you're in this business long enough, you're either going to have to fire an executive, or you're going to be the one getting fired. That's just reality. What started as a simple question

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33:42

How To Actually Use AI Agents, With Samy Aumar of Qonto

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/17

Today we're sharing an episode of the 10x Recruiting podcast which features guest Samy Aumar, the People Systems Excellence Manager at Qonto, shares his actual AI workflows live with Nolan Church and Siadhal Magos (CEO of Metaview). The goal of this series is to demonstrate practical and attainable AI implementation, especially for those executives at companies with AI mandates (like Shopify and Fiverr). This episode highlights Samy's use of AI agents which can be built without coding skills in just

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28:59

Your Next Hire Might Be a Deepfake with Danielle...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/12

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church talk to Danielle Mathis, Vice President, Global Talent & HRBP of Clari, revealing how fraudsters orchestrated an elaborate recruitment scam, deceiving 12 job seekers with fake offers while harvesting their personal data. The shocking conversation exposes the dark reality of deepfake candidates infiltrating hiring processes and why traditional recruitment methods are dangerously obsolete in our AI-manipulated world.*Email us your questions or topics for

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41:40

Executive Search is Broken — Here’s What Executive...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/06/10

This episode of HR Heretics explores executive search from both sides: being recruited and managing recruitment. Neil Frye, former CPO at Google and Dropbox, and current Chief People Officer at Dotmatics, sits down with Nolan Church and discuss withdrawal strategies, internal versus external search criteria, conscious leadership frameworks, style compatibility, and treating job searches like mutual acquisitions rather than one-sided selections.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan:

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59:03

I Demoted Myself Twice at Meta - And It Made Me...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/29

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk to Cynthia "Baz" Shrauner, former Meta HR executive and current Head of People at Electric Capital. Baz discusses her unconventional career move of voluntarily demoting herself twice to focus on work she genuinely enjoyed rather than traditional leadership roles. She candidly explores the tension between ego and fulfillment, Meta's hiring excesses during COVID and subsequent layoffs, and the complexities of DEI initiatives in

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20:18

Why Greylock's Glen Evans Says Your All-Nighter...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/27

This segment examines the resurgence of "996" work culture (9 AM to 9 PM, six days weekly) among Silicon Valley's early-stage founders. Nolan analyzes the tension between demanding work schedules and talent attraction, drawing from Glen Evans' LinkedIn critique. He argues these intensive cultures suit certain life stages and career priorities, emphasizing that both high-intensity startups and work-life balance approaches can coexist as conscious trade-offs rather than moral imperatives.NOTE: Kelli

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46:33

Why HR Should Never Lead Training: The Case for...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/22

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Fidelma Butler, Chief People Officer at Couchbase, a NoSQL cloud database platform company. They talk about how to build effective L&D programs by defining clear leadership standards, focusing resources on senior leaders, and integrating learning into daily work instead of traditional training sessions.Fidelma emphasizes that L&D needs to be agile, continuously evolving, and solve actual business problems rather than existing

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44:02

The Fractional Executive Myth with Sally Thornton,...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/15

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Sally Thornton, founder of Forshay. Sally shares insights on the fractional executive placement business she's built since 2011. Thornton emphasizes that successful fractional work requires consultative skills, boundary management, and rapid trust-building rather than simply scoped part-time arrangements. If you're thinking of going fractional, this is a must-listen discussion.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli &

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16:38

Is It Ever Okay to be Late to Meetings?

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/13

Kelli and Nolan explore the art of professional boundary-setting and etiquette. After Nolan shared a LinkedIn post about declining a meeting with a founder who didn't show up on time to their scheduled call, the hosts examine the delicate balance between protecting one's time and extending grace to others. Their conversation delves into how personal boundaries, stress levels, and professional status influence our responses to professional missteps*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan:

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38:40

Creating the 'Airbnb for Offsites': Jared Kleinert on...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/08

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Jared Kleinert, founder of Offsite.com, who shares insights on planning effective team retreats that transform from "nice-to-have" into strategic "must-have" events for remote and hybrid companies. Kleinert emphasizes that successful offsites require intentional planning with clear objectives, arguing that thoughtfully designed retreats drive organizational alignment, build trust between teammates, and provide measurable

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27:39

The $8M DoorDash Mistake: Equity Offers

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/06

In this candid "HR Heretics" segment, Nolan and Kelli expose the hidden risks of equity compensation, including Nolan's $8 million DoorDash missed opportunity. They reveal essential questions about share counts, strike prices, and exercise windows that can make or break startup wealth. Their message: equity details are negotiable, but education is your responsibility—not the company's.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at

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18:03

Tobi Lütke Wants Shopify Employees to Use AI...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/05/01

In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church explore the emerging trend of "CEO AI mandates" from the likes of Tobias Lütke and Aaron Levie at Box.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors:Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving

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18:41

360 Reviews Without the Dread

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/04/29

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan unpacks the intricacies of 360 reviews from a management perspective, offering pragmatic approaches to synthesizing overwhelming feedback data. They contrast methodical theme-based analysis with modern AI-assisted solutions, emphasizing that meaningful feedback isn't an annual crucible but a continuous conversation peppered with five compliments per criticism.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor

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43:24

Troy Sultan: How Guide Turned RCs into Iron Man

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/04/25

In this episode, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Troy Sultan who shares his journey from Google to founding Guide, an AI-powered recruiting coordination platform. Sultan challenges traditional recruiting assumptions, arguing modern candidates prefer transparency, speed, and self-service options that let them control their hiring experience.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR

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22:39

Sapphire VC’s People Leaders Retreat & Deep Fakes

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/04/22

Kelli and Nolan recap their experience at the recent Sapphire People Leader Retreat focused on the evolving role of CPOs in 2025, covering executive alignment, moral boundaries, burnout prevention, and peer networks. They also share a case of corporate identity theft targeting job candidates, highlighting emerging recruitment security challenges.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is

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42:56

Character AI's Annie Wickman on PMF, Google's Deal,...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/04/17

Annie Wickman shares insights from her journey as Google alum, first non-founder at Humu, and now Head of People at Character AI. Annie tackles our hardest questions in an unmissable episode. She covers the tensions between product-market fit and company culture, Character AI's unprecedented Google deal structure, taking the leap from people leader to a VC, and how to rebuild organizational trust.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising

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19:52

Startup Ethics: All In or Out

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/04/15

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss a listener's dilemma about working with ethically questionable founders. They explore the tension between startup rule-bending culture and personal values, advising that leadership requires either full alignment with founders or graceful departure.They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagues

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46:29

VC Brett Queener Unpacks AI-Native Startups and the...

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards... ·

2025/04/10

HR Heretics welcomes back guest Brett Queener, Managing Director at Bonfire Ventures, for a check in on the current venture landscape.Fresh from raising a $245 million fund, Queener explores how AI is fundamentally changing software companies, emphasizing the need for rapid iteration and questioning traditional playbooks. He shares thoughtful perspectives on evaluating AI startups beyond the hype, the changing nature of talent requirements, and why successful companies must embrace a "change

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