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PODCAST

The Messy City Podcast

Kevin Klinkenberg

Embracing change, uncertainty and local initiative for our cities and towns kevinklinkenberg.substack.com

arts design

All Episodes

74:33

Live, from Akron, Ohio

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/09/12

Jason Segedy has served in public service in Akron, Ohio for over 25 years. He’s been a leader at an MPO, and also the Planning Director in the city where he was born and raised. It’s safe to say that Jason has a lot of love for his hometown of Akron, Ohio.I began following Jason on social media, mostly Twitter, several years ago. I found him instantly to be one of the most thoughtful, provocative and insightful people on that forum. He’s a big thinker, but also eminently practical and funny. He

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76:05

Writing the Story for Your City or Town

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/09/05

Steve Garrett has a delightful podcast called Within the Realm, where he tells short stories of people and places in the world he knows best. He’s also a former City Manager, and a recent devotee to the world of Strong Towns. He joins me to talk about how people like himself and others that aren’t so versed in the world of city-making can find ways to improve their own little corner of the world. We hit on big and small change, successes and failures and the different roles we can all play.Find more

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65:07

Rebuilding South Bend

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/08/29

About a month ago, Strong Towns released this fantastic video on South Bend, Indiana that’s gone a bit viral within the planning and development world. I personally wish it would go viral to an enormous audience. It’s a remarkable story, and they called it, “Can American Cities Save Themselves? This One Thinks So.”One of the protagonists in this story is Mike Keen, a retired professor who lives in South Bend. Mike joins me in this episode to dive deeper into how this all came together, and how he

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63:54

Creating a Wonderful Life

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/08/22

During the course of this interview, I jokingly called Butch Rigby the George Bailey of Kansas City. But the more I reflect on this, the more true it rings. Butch talks about how he started with nothing, got his hands dirty for years, and slowly but doggedly created a successful development business. And, how he did it almost exclusively by working with small, local businesses. There’s so much to learn here, and if I had the power, I’d have every 20-something that’s looking for something meaningful

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72:30

Loving the Great River, and its Towns

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/08/08

“People travel thousands of miles to go on outdoor adventures, but you can do all that right here on the Mississippi.”The great river through the middle of the country is so many things to so many people. It’s a transportation lifeline, a natural wonder, a deep connection to the human spirit, and the birthplace of countless cities and towns.Dean Klinkenberg, who happens to be my older brother, has spent all his adult life living along the river, studying it, exploring it, and thinking about how to

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65:49

The Next Urbanism

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/08/01

Howard Blackson is the Howard Roark to my Peter Keating. He’s the oil to my water. Well, alright, maybe not so much. But we have sparred from time to time over American city grids, and urban design issues that all of about 100 people get really into. Beyond that, he’s a passionate San Diegan, and a very accomplished planner and designer.We finally had a chance to do a podcast together, and soldiered through some rough tech issues. Forgive any bumps.Yes, we talk some about grids, about the US West

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72:15

Marina Khoury Does it All

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/07/18

Marina Khoury is easily one of the most accomplished people in the world of urban design and planning that you probably don’t know. From Lebanon to Paris to Wisconsin and ultimately to work at DPZ CoDesign, Marina’s career has spanned a remarkable amount of work and experiences. The Miami21 zoning code alone is a heroic effort, worthy of great study for large cities nationwide. We trace Marina’s wide array of work in architecture, urban design and writing codes.Key links:Marina’s LinkedIn profileDPZ

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69:30

For the Humans: Talking about joy, cities and mental...

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/07/11

Not to be redundant, but Arti Harchekar is a joy to talk with. The author of the unique and fascinating blog, Joyful Urbanist, Arti has moved from planning to design to now the tech world, but always explores her interest in cities, towns and how places make us feel. I knew early on that Arti would do really great things, and it wouldn’t surprise me if one day much more of the world knows her and enjoys her writing.In her writing, Arti likes to talk about our emotional connections to place. She

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63:05

Planners: Learn to Love America

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/07/04

At the CNU31 and Strong Towns National Gathering confabs this year, I heard a lot of language that would put planners and designers in a very small minority outside the walls of the conference center. I get it - it’s a niche audience. It exists to critique American cities and towns, and make them better. A fair amount of what happens is venting. But an awful lot of what I increasingly hear simply condescends towards what normal Americans value and choose in large numbers. We can do better by our

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67:06

Hard Lessons are Good Lessons to Learn

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/06/27

John Anderson was one of the first people I got to know when I was a young pup architect trying to get involved with New Urbanism. I did my first design charrette with John and others in 1999, in Truckee, CA. We subsequently worked together many times over the years, in both planning and architecture work. I’ve seen John rise to being a minor celebrity in this world, and see him inspire countless others to try your hand in this strange professional (if you can call it that) endeavor.We’ve agreed,

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61:20

Ali Quinlan will leave you with no excuses

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/06/20

Ali Quinlan is easily one of the most impressive people I’ve ever talked with, and makes me feel like I’m not doing nearly enough with my time. She’ll almost certainly have the same impact on you.In this second discussion at CNU31, Ali talks about her path becoming an architect, landscape architect, business owner, and developer. And she talks about how to balance it all while being a single Mom of small children. Ali has some incredible insights into managing her priorities and time, as well as the

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63:03

Ask yourself, "Why am I Doing This?"

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/06/13

This is the first of three conversations I recorded at CNU31 in Charlotte in late May/early June. I’ll roll the rest out in coming weeks - each was VERY different, but thoroughly enjoyable. Here’s a tease: I had my first guest cry on-air.Andy Boneau is just a really fun and interesting person to talk with. Part engineer, part planner, part marketing and messaging expert, and now a documentary filmmaker - Andy writes the can’t-miss Substack Urbanism Speakeasy. Andy is funny, self-deprecating, but

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64:15

Bringing Some Tough Love to Rookie Developers

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/06/06

Aaron Lubeck doesn’t just have opinions, he’s willing to share them. Honestly. He’s also a guy with a very unusual career path for urban design and planning coaching. Part developer, part historic preservationist, part designer, and now part journalist, Aaron and I cover a lot of ground. How do we find and create more small developers in our community, and actually help them succeed? How can we especially recruit younger people, women and minorities into the field?Aaron has been involved with

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47:32

How does big change happen?

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/05/30

Kevin’s editorial note: I’ve had some questions about making transcripts of these available, for those who’d prefer to read instead of listen to the podcasts. I’m looking into it, especially what AI tools might help. Just know I have exceptionally limited time, and there’s no way I’m going to spend an additional hour or two each week refining a transcript. At this point in my life, it’s just not possible. At any rate, the audio is much more interesting anyway - please give it a listen. If you’re new

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65:34

So you want to be a City Planner?

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/05/23

Being a Director of City Planning is glamorous, right? Isn’t that what Seinfeld taught us?Rob Richardson has been a Planning Director in both Kansas City, Kansas (the Unified Government of Wyandotte County) and Raymore, Missouri. He’s also worked as a planner in Independence, Missouri. We discuss the reality of the job in those communities, and the challenges of working in places that aren’t wealthy.While in KCK, Rob advanced numerous efforts including design guidelines for development of narrow

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57:52

Follow your... anger? Nathan Norris talks about...

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/05/16

Nathan Norris and I have been involved in New Urbanism and the Congress for the New Urbanism for more than 25 years. And yet, our backgrounds and path to it couldn’t be more different. Nathan came a military and a legal background, while I came from an architecture and design background. In fact, most New Urbanists were originally like me, and people like Nathan were the outliers.Nathan talks about how he followed his passions, sort of. Basically, things that angered him, led him to future work

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67:53

Bringing the Strong Towns Message to Texas

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/05/09

It’s a tale of two Kevins, as we discuss cultivating local prosperity and the Strong Towns message with Kevin Shepherd of Verdunity. Kevin is an engineer by background, and started his own planning and engineering firm just over a decade ago in the Dallas area. He left the corporate world to follow his calling to help cities and towns make more fiscally-productive decisions with land use and infrastructure. He talks with us about why he made that leap, how it’s going working in cities and towns in

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68:14

Policy Wonk to Infill Developer

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/05/02

In just a few short years, Andrew Ganahl has already made a notable impact in the urban development world in Kansas City. He’s developed three new projects in the urban core, is working on more, and he’s shown how persistence and a positive attitude can get a whole lot done in short order. But, he’s not only not from Kansas City, he’s also only recently become a developer. The Stanford and Harvard-educated public policy wonk (I hope he doesn’t mind me calling him that), only came to the development

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59:04

To car-free or not to car-free?

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/04/25

The notorious and excellent blogger, Mr. Money Mustache, wrote a worlds-colliding piece a couple weeks ago called “Less Cars, More Money: My Visit to the City of the Future.” MMM writes at length about culdesac Tempe, which we discussed on a previous podcast with Dan Parolek of Opticos Design.MMM is the GOAT in many respects for the Financial Independence movement. If you’ve touched that world at all, you’ve probably heard of him, read his posts, or seen him in movies or clips. Funny thing is, he’s

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107:37

Being the Change in Your Community

The Messy City Podcast ·

2023/04/18

How do you find an outlet for your passion for your place, especially when you don’t feel you have the money necessary to get started? Is it possible to still see yourself as a developer?Jason, Shomari and I have a LOT to discuss in this episode. In my longest interview to-date, we talk about a wide range of topics from getting started in development, to being the change in your own community, and what all is going on in Kansas City and the Vine District in particular. Jason and Shomari are two

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