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PODCAST

Being Liminal

Martin Dowson & Brian Hoadley

Being Liminal is a podcast about the changing nature of Leadership in Business & Society today. Brian and Martin explore the mindsets and skills that are necessary to navigate a world that is undergoing increasing and ever-present flux, the limits organisations place on themselves by not acknowledging the liminality of change and the edges of todays systems where we find examples of how our futures could be - if we could just embrace liminal leadership. www.beingliminal.com

business design

All Episodes

70:54

Design Economy 2026: useful, relevant, representative?

Being Liminal ·

2026/09/15

Last week the Design Council published Design Economy 2026, the latest in over a decade of reporting on what design is worth to the UK economy. We get straight into the question that actually matters to anyone working in the industry: how useful, how relevant and how representative is it?Brian comes in hot. Martin, who has been through all 57 data tables, spends a fair amount of the conversation trying not to sound like he’s in the pocket of the Design Council. Somewhere in between is what you need

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57:38

A Big Bloody Experiment:

Being Liminal ·

2026/08/04

In this episode of Being Liminal, you’ll find Brian and Martin hitting record just as the conversation is really getting going - another no-guest, no-plan conversation that ends up diving into a single, very topical thread: organisations are reacting to AI without ever having prepared for it.It begins with design. If AI-generated work mostly looks like slop, is that a victory for human designers, or a distraction? Martin’s argument is that reacting to bad AI visuals only reclaims production-level

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51:16

Neither and Both

Being Liminal ·

2026/06/24

Series 3 opens with Brian and Martin doing the thing the show is named after - sitting in the uncomfortable middle of a transition rather than analysing it from a safe distance. Brian is part-way through a staged shift from full-time consultant to full-time novelist, and describes himself as "neither and both": no longer fully one thing, not yet the other. Martin is moving deeper into independent advisory work, where the job has become helping teams who have no realistic plan walk into a room with

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60:13

Navigating Uncertainty

Being Liminal ·

2025/03/04

Liminality is about existing in transition, where uncertainty and ambiguity dominate. Innovation, at its core, is a liminal activity—organisations step away from established norms to explore new futures. But how comfortable are businesses with this uncertainty?In this episode, Richard Walzer joins us to discuss:* Why innovation is inherently liminal—leaving the known to explore possible futures* The pendulum swing of innovation—why businesses drift between embracing and resisting change* How

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26:17

Liminal Thoughts: Are We Sleepwalking into a Creative...

Being Liminal ·

2025/02/10

A new format that we are trying out where one of us shares a shorter deep dive on a current topic - we are interested in your responses and thoughts on the topics in these shorter episodes and we will pick up on the topic together in our longer format sessions.In this episode of Being Liminal, I (Martin) explore the growing intersection of AI and creativity. The rise of AI-generated content is both fascinating and unsettling—offering new possibilities but also raising difficult questions about what

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59:46

Longwave Thinking – Thriving in Complex Systems

Being Liminal ·

2024/12/20

Longwave Thinking – Thriving in Complex SystemsPart 3 of 3 exploring three levels of disruption from Design Team to Wider SystemsIntroductionIn the final episode of our three-part series, we move beyond organisations to the broader systems that shape them. We discuss the extended cycles of disruption impacting society and business alike. From climate change to economic upheaval, we explore how leaders can adapt to and thrive in a world where uncertainty is the new normal.Key Takeaways• Limits vs

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48:31

Navigating Transformation – Organisational Blind Spots

Being Liminal ·

2024/12/16

Navigating Transformation – Organizational Blind SpotsPart 2 of 3 exploring three levels of disruption from Design Team to Wider SystemsIntroductionIn part two of our series, we zoom out to explore transformation at the organisational level. We discuss why businesses often repeat past mistakes, how continuous improvement and transformation intertwine, and the systemic blind spots that hinder meaningful change. If your organization struggles with delivering transformation that sticks, this episode is

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42:44

Design's Woes Are a Symptom of Larger Business...

Being Liminal ·

2024/12/09

Design's Woes Are a Symptom of Larger Business ChallengesPart 1 of 3 exploring three levels of disruption from Design Team to Wider SytemsIntroduction:In the first episode of this three-part series of Being Liminal, we begin at the team level, exploring why design often feels undervalued within organisations. We unpack how design’s challenges, from production-focused roles to mismatched values, reflect larger organisational struggles. If you’ve ever wondered why design sometimes feels like it’s

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62:46

Joe Macleod: Endineering - Designing Ends

Being Liminal ·

2024/12/05

Joe Macleod: Endineering - Designing EndsIntroduction:In this episode of Being Liminal, we are joined by Joe Macleod, author of Ends and Endineering. Together, we delve into the fascinating and often overlooked world of designing for endings. Joe shares insights on how businesses and consumers can rethink their relationship with product lifecycles, focusing on creating meaningful and sustainable endings. From circularity to corporate responsibility, this conversation explores how endings can drive

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72:33

Ben Reason: Embracing a Sense of Place, Edge Thinking...

Being Liminal ·

2023/11/28

Ben Reason, one of the early pioneers of Service Design and co-founder of the boundary pushing agency Livework joins Martin and Brian for a thoughtful discussion on navigating the liminal spaces and the systemic changes that are shaping our world as we know it. Ben's thought-leadership on designing in the Anthropocene was the stimulus for recording this conversation but it builds on the work of many other thinkers in this space.We challenge the allure of scale, examining the benefits of

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57:11

Bethany Jarroussié - Navigating change as a leader...

Being Liminal ·

2023/11/07

In this episode Brian and Martin are in conversation with Bethany Jarroussié. Bethany is on the design leadership team at BP and her career as a design leader has seen her take on distinctly non-design type activities. It's a conversation that covers, how, if we're honest about the nature of transformation, it can be very unpredictable, and with that comes a need to create psychological safety for teams. There are great examples of leaders who created the environments in which

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62:30

Ola Gwozdz: A Data Philosopher's perspective on...

Being Liminal ·

2023/10/16

In this episode Brian and I are in conversation with Ola Gwozdz, a listener who reached out to share her perspective and we realised we just had to bring into our exploration. Ola helps us delve into the intricacies of identity, power dynamics, and the transformative potential of liminal spaces. She describes herself as a Data Philosopher, a concept and articulation I find fascinating – using data not just as raw information but a medium or lens to understand and interpret deeper societal and

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74:42

Andy Thornton: Navigating Change with Regenerative...

Being Liminal ·

2023/09/23

Do you ever wonder how your organization can embrace change and thrive in the face of uncertainty? Join us on a journey into the world of regenerative design and leadership with our guest, Andy Thornton, the Head of Regenerative Design at the RSA - The Royal Society of Arts, Commerce, and Manufacturing. We explore design and systems thinking, discuss the importance of courage in leadership, and peel back the layers of an ever-evolving organisational landscape. Andy's expertise paints a fresh

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43:37

Leaning into Liminality - Reflecting on a necessary...

Being Liminal ·

2023/09/05

"The One where Brian and Martin realise they haven't been very 'liminal' in their approach to researching liminality"In response to both Listener and Guest feedback as well as some of our own reflection on what we've learnt so far from our guests - this episode is a moment for us to reflect on our need to pivot our approach to the research and exploration that we are doing. We said we would do this in the open and part of that means recognising and leaning into when

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52:32

Clive Grinyer : The Future of Design Education as a...

Being Liminal ·

2023/08/07

How do you leverage a moment of potential transformation? How do you support fundamental change in an organisation that sees the need but doesn't know how to realise it? In our discussion with Professor Clive Grinyer, Head of Service Design at the Royal College of Art, we challenge the notion that organisations don't want to change and discuss how design can be a crucial catalyst for business transformation. We delve into the mindset gap that executive leadership are asking for help to

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65:44

Cennydd Bowles: Decoding Ethical Challenges in...

Being Liminal ·

2023/07/17

What if you could transform your business while also putting ethics at the forefront? That's exactly what we tackle in our conversation with Cennydd Bowles, a designer and technologist turned ethicist, and author of Future Ethics. Cennydd sheds light on the importance of weaving ethics into the fabric of transformation and how ‘designed futures’ can help uncover potential harms. In an age where technology overwhelmingly shapes our experiences, we touch on the philosophical underpinnings of

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72:25

Maria Giudice - Unleashing the Changemaker Within:...

Being Liminal ·

2023/06/25

What if the superpowers needed to navigate today's complex world were already within us? That's what we discovered in our fascinating conversation with Maria Giudice, co-author of "Changemakers," as we discussed the evolving nature of leadership in business transformation and the innate qualities designers possess that make them powerful agents of change. Maria shares her insights on the importance of embracing change agency, risk-taking, intuition, systems thinking, and

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65:27

Sheryl Cababa - Beyond Individual Use: Expanding...

Being Liminal ·

2023/06/04

What if you could elevate your design skills by incorporating systems thinking? We had the pleasure of discussing this fascinating approach with the brilliant Sheryl Cababa, author of "Closing the Loop." Sheryl shares her expertise in design, research, and strategy, providing valuable insights into her journey as a design leader. Whether you are a design, product, technology or business leader - don't miss this opportunity to learn from Sheryl's vast experience in applying

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86:00

Designing Transformation: How ESG, Data, and Purpose...

Being Liminal ·

2023/06/04

What does it take for businesses to adapt to the rapidly changing expectations on their role in society and what will it mean for how we Design, Build and Lead business of the future? In this first full episode of Liminal Leaders Brian & I dive right into ESG as an example of a force for change in the way business interpret their purpose in Society. We even dive back into histories of companies like Scottish Widows and Bank of Scotland, and their long-standing commitment to supporting their

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22:20

An Introduction to Liminal Leaders - Episode Zero

Being Liminal ·

2023/06/04

Welcome to Liminal Leaders -this short episode is an overview of what we're hoping to achieve with the podcast. Because we are also researching and writing a book through this podcast - Episode Zero will set the scene and theme for the episodes that follow which will jump around between topics as we conduct our research. We'd also really appreciate your initial thoughts, ideas and questions that come up from listening into this episode to help us shape our future guest list and

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