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PODCAST

Frank and Stan Chats

Frank Norris and Stan Johnson

Frank Norris and Stan Johnson have been friends since 1995. Both have had successful and lengthy careers in education. Frank was a very senior HMI with Ofsted for 11 years and was the CEO of the Coop Academies Trust for 6 years. Stan was seconded to Ofsted for a year and then returned to headship before working as a senior adviser with Lancashire LA. He has latterly led a successful education consultancy in the North West. Prior to Covid-19, the two gents would meet in Manchester for a pint or two

education

All Episodes

36:32

Frank and Stan Chat No. 239

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/11/06

This week the gents chat with Alex Howarth, a Director of a large accountancy business and proud father of three young girls. Stan kicks things off considering the use of 'case sampling' in the new Ofsted school inspection Framework. He's concerned with the approach and how it could lead to weak evaluations by inspectors. Alex then reflects on the shift to more practical mathematics contained in the Francis Curriculum Review. Frank then considers the importance of oracy in the future and how

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41:26

Frank and Stan Chat No. 238

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/10/22

It is a pleasure to welcome Chris Zarraga the Director of Schools North East, the largest regional organisation supporting schools in the country. We also become aware that SNE also supports a number of special schools. We discuss the origins of SNE and Chris' career journey before we venture into what's caught Stan's eyes this week? He focuses on Martin's Law and the implications it has for school leadership. Chris then reflects on the importance of relationships and how this is always a key

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29:54

Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT No. 18

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/10/17

The 18th Spotlight edition of the Frank and Stan Chat looks at assessment and what digital leadership involves when we chat with Rosie Clayton. Rosie, until recently, was a key player in the Re-Thinking Assessment Group and has recently moved into a senior role at the Transforming Learning Group. We consider the development of new approaches to assessment and the future role of AI. We also revisit the amazing work Rosie led on in creating a Learner Profile that provides a mechanism for a fuller

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36:52

Frank and Stan Chat No. 237

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/10/13

Frank met Chris Jones, CEO of SMART Curriculum, a couple of years ago. We've been trying to secure a guest slot on the Frank and Stan Chat for a little while. He's a very busy man, so we are delighted to have him join us for what proves to be an illuminating and far-reaching discussion.Stan gets things rolling by questioning the central costs of trusts compared to those of the local authorities in the past. Chris is well-informed on such matters and explains that comparisons are tricky because the

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37:29

Frank and Stan Chat No. 236: Dave Rzeznik

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/10/08

It is a great pleasure to have Dave Rzeznik, a former HMI for many years with a keen interest in the provision and outcomes of the most vulnerable pupils, join us as our guest this week. We have been trying to secure a slot with Dave for quite some time, so it is great to have time to discuss the things that have caught our eyes this week. Stan kicks off by considering the new role of the nominee being introduced by Ofsted as part of their attempt to de-escalate the tension felt during their

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35:00

Frank and Stan Chat No. 235

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/10/03

This week the chat considers what it takes for an ambitious socially minded individual to leave a successful career to start up a not for profit organisation charged with encouraging more females into the tech world. This is what Chelsea Slater did when she created Liverpool Girl Geeks which in time became InnovateHer. Chelsea explains how an assembly in her secondary school made her realise she wanted to get into studying media. This took her towards university and then into a digital business

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43:22

Frank and Stan Chat No. 234

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/09/25

We are delighted to welcome back Ian Coulson, a former Headteacher and now a school improvement adviser. He was previously a guest in December 2020 when he was managing the trials and tribulations of DfE guidance for school leaders during the Covid pandemic. He is now the Founder of Teaching Made Simple Ltd, an advisory organisation for schools. He is at pains to explain he doesn't believe teaching is simple, but by trying to focus on the most important things, it can be made more manageable.Stan

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38:15

Frank and Stan Chat No. 233: Ronda Zelezny-Green...

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/09/17

We are so fortunate to have highly regarded experts in their field who come along to be a guest on our chat. This week is a good example. The two gents are joined by Dr Ronda Zelezny-Green, the Chair of the Board at InnovateHer, as well as a digital changemaker creating social learning systems to empower Black people, women, people with disabilities, and others who may be marginalised in the technology and education sectors. She has nearly 20 years of professional experience spanning five continents

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38:20

Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT No.17

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/09/15

This special SPOTLIGHT considers how human resources has changed over the years. Frank and Stan are fortunate to be able to chat with Juliet Caunt, a former Director of People in a large multi-academy trust and who now offers consultancy to a wide range of organisations. We consider how the role of HR has changed over the years, some of the difficulties senior managers experience and how HR professionals help all parties. We also reflect on how Juliet extended HR services in a rapidly growing trust

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37:24

Frank and Stan Chat No. 232

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/09/12

Frank and Stan have been working hard to secure a slot in Paul Cherpeau's diary for close on a year. As the CEO of the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce he's a very busy colleague. Frank and Paul are members of the independent Liverpool Education Board and have discussed how best to improve the employability of young people in the city on many occasions. The chat does not disappoint as Paul explains how the Chamber works to support local businesses in the Liverpool City Region by providing a strong

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35:59

Frank and Stan Chat No. 231

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/09/03

Well, who would have predicted the weekly Frank and Stan Chat would reach its seventh academic year. Back in May 2020, the two gents were unable to meet for a beer, so decided to chat using Zoom and press the record button as a means of saving our thoughts on the ongoing pandemic. Putting it on Youtube without knowing what we were doing enabled viewers to watch and follow. We are now at edition 231, with a further 16 specialist SPOTLIGHT editions so we are getting close to 250! With guests lined up

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36:41

Frank and Stan Chat No. 230

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/07/11

The final weekly Frank and Stan Chat chat of the 2024-2025 academic year sees Lisa Lea-Weston return to discuss what's caught her eye this week as well as update us on her work on supervision, Lisa was a guest last year and made a very positive impression in the focus her work provides on supporting senior leaders. Interestingly, the focus of her work is now developing to offer supervision to make more staff, with different levels of responsibility, across schools and trusts. Our chat considers how

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42:33

Frank and Stan Chat No. 229

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/07/04

This week we are delighted to have John Malynn OBE, a former senior Civil Servant at the DfE and Ofsted joining us. He is well versed in the delicate discussions that take place, often behind closed doors, in ensuring policy is converted into practice. With some major policy changes this week being announced by the government concerning welfare reform, he is well placed to comment.Stan starts proceedings by reflecting on some Y6 pupils he saw locally wearing their 'Leavers 2025' sweatshirts and

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36:50

Frank and Stan Chat No. 228

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/06/26

This week the two gents welcome back Rebecca Smith, a Headteacher in a large secondary school in Greater Manchester. Rebecca has been a guest a few times before and was a guest on our 100th edition of the chat in April 2022 alongside Prof Andy Hargreaves and her husband Neil Smith. Frank worked closely with Rebecca when she was a principal at one of the Coop Trust academies, where he witnessed her amazing leadership skills in turning around a school, that was fairly dysfunctional, into an amazing

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40:16

Frank and Stan Chat No. 227

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/06/22

A few years after Frank and Stan started their teaching careers they became aware of an education author called Pie Corbett. As there was very little guidance in the area of reading and writing Pie's books became a staple diet for professional development. Now, with over 200 publications, including the seminal 'Talk for Writing' and 'Cats, Hats and Hippos', Pie's extensive and varied career makes him an excellent guest. He doesn't disappoint.Stan considers his wonderful holiday last week which gave

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31:27

Frank and Stan Chat No. 226

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/06/11

This week, with Stan away on holiday enjoying some very hot weather, Frank is joined by Nic Ponsford CEO of the GEC Collective. The GEC is a global community of inclusion and well-being change-makers focused on education, empowerment, and equipping schools and organizations to create more inclusive and equitable environments. They utilize a digital platform and a network of experts to offer resources, data, and action plans to promote diversity and inclusion. This week they published their

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52:04

Frank and Stan Chat No. 225

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/05/21

A riveting, well-informed and insightful chat with Kevin Edward Turner MBE, co-founder and co-artistic director of Company Chameleon, a highly regarded contemporary dance company based in Manchester. Kevin was a student of Frank's when he was a headteacher and re-connected in 2018 when Company Chameleon undertook dance workshops in some of the Coop's academies in Greater Manchester. Kevin explains how his life was transformed and given purpose when the Northern Ballet Theatre Company provided a

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40:04

Frank and Stan Chat No. 224

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/05/16

Just the two gents this week and they consider governance, leadership and the 'fit and proper' test for football, rugby league and MAT leadership. With Salford City Reds facing a winding-up order for non-payment of taxes Stan considers how they got into this position while Frank considers the journey of his beloved Southend Utd which faced similar difficulties recently. They consider the importance of honesty and transparency in leadership and Frank is quick to highlight the work of Prof Marianne

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37:24

Frank and Stan Chat No. 223

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/05/12

Every now and again Frank and Stan give full rein to our guest, especially if they want to share some insight that is challenging or even provocative. This is what happened when Aelwyn Pugh, a former highly experienced HMI joined us again for our weekly chat. Aelwyn had prepared a carefully considered his thoughts on the issue of social mobility and how it had enabled him to progress. He also reflected on the type of education he received and how it enabled him to challenge orthodoxy and helped him

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38:31

Frank and Stan Chat No. 222

Frank and Stan Chats ·

2025/04/30

After a short break the Frank and Stan Chat returns with a familiar guest joining us again. Brian Lightman, the former leader of ASCL (for 6 years) and secondary Headteacher of two Welsh schools, author and education consultant returns to consider - the role of Facebook in deciding on which school to select- the dangers of the current Ofsted inspection proposals- the role of the RISE teams and they intersect with existing school improvement programmes and strategies- the lack of a clear vision for

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