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PODCAST

21 Hats Podcast

The 21 Hats Podcast presents an authentic weekly conversation with small business owners who are remarkably willing to share what’s working for them and what isn’t. Unlike many business podcasts, which tend to talk to highly successful entrepreneurs whose struggles are in the past, the 21 Hats Podcast features a rotating cast of business owners who are still very much in the trenches fighting the good fight. Every week, our regulars gather to talk about the kinds of important issues many owners

business entrepreneurship

All Episodes

45:52

How Do You Sell HR to Owners Who Don’t Think They...

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/04/14

Sandy Kapell knows HR—just not the version most business owners live with. After years leading human resources for corporations, Sandy launched her own business, Trakehner Leadership, to bring that expertise to companies that need help. And she’s quickly found a big opportunity: Most small businesses don’t have HR departments, but they still have all the same HR challenges.The catch? Sandy has also realized that knowing HR isn’t the same as knowing how owners think about HR. Or how they talk about

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32:44

Dashboard: She Built a Business by Learning to Run...

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/04/10

In her thirties, Lisa Woodruff hit a breaking point—overwhelmed, overweight, and depressed, as she puts it. So she made a radical decision: she quit her job as a school teacher and set out to get her own life in order. What started as a personal reset became a business—Organize 365—built around a simple but powerful idea: running a household isn’t all that different from running a company.In her new book, Escaping Quicksand, Lisa argues that households, like businesses, need systems, delegation, and

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54:06

Are You Pricing for Your Clients or for Your Business?

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/04/07

Pricing a service business sounds straightforward—until you actually have to do it. How much should you charge? What’s reasonable? And what happens when “reasonable” isn’t enough to keep the business healthy? This week, Sarah Segal walks David C. Barnett and Liz Picarazzi through how she thinks about pricing her PR services—why she aims for consistency across clients and why she resists charging based on what the market will bear but insists on building in enough margin to stay profitable. It’s a

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34:58

Dashboard: Is AI Killing SEO Spam (and Unleashing...

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/04/03

Shawn Busse has never been an AI evangelist. If anything, he’s been wary of the hype. But lately, his thinking has started to shift. While it’s still early, Shawn sees AI pushing marketing away from the soul-deadening world of SEO hacks and keyword stuffing—and toward something far more human: real storytelling and authentic brand building. In this week’s Dashboard, he explains what he’s seeing in his own business and with clients, and what it may mean for owners trying to figure out where to focus

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49:54

Managing People Is Hard: When Does Demanding Become...

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/03/31

It’s easy to condemn the horror stories coming out of Noma, the celebrated restaurant in Copenhagen. But this week, Jay Goltz, Jennifer Kerhin, and Ted Wolf confront a harder question: How far are the rest of us—business owners in every industry—from crossing the line? Because it’s not just restaurants. Most owners don’t set out to be abusive. They set out to build something great. And somewhere along the way, high standards can start to blur into something else. ‘I was out of control when I was in

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39:09

Dashboard: A $2 Million Bet on Banana Ice Cream

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/03/27

Chris Campbell started his first business at 18 and has since built and sold companies in landscaping, construction, furniture, and marketing. After his most recent exit, he spent years searching for a business to buy—and found nothing. That dead end turned out to be an opening.Instead, Chris and a group of partners—including his wife, Emily—decided to start something from scratch. The result: a plan for Banana Daddy, a high-concept soft-serve shop built around banana ice cream that would take $2

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49:47

It Took 25 Years to Get Here

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/03/24

Given everything going on in the world, you might expect a rough start to the year. But for Paul Downs, Jennifer Kerhin, and Jaci Russo, 2026 has actually begun quite well. In fact, Jennifer and Jaci say they’re finally climbing out of what many owners call the Valley of Death—that long stretch when the business depends on you for everything and when it starts to outgrow your people and your systems. Exiting the valley can take a lot longer than people expect. Jennifer is seeing daylight in year 17

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45:21

Dashboard: The Case Against Pay for Performance

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/03/20

For most business owners, rewarding employees for doing their jobs well is just common sense. Hit your numbers, get a bonus. Sell more, earn more. Perform better, get paid more. That’s how motivation works…right?This week, management consultant Kelly Allan asks owners to reconsider that assumption. Allan is steeped in the teachings of W. Edwards Deming, the management thinker widely credited with inspiring Japan’s post–World War II industrial revival. Deming argued that pay-for-performance systems

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45:33

For Business Owners, It’s One Battle After Another

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/03/17

It’s already been quite a decade for owners: a pandemic, inflation, tariffs, and now, suddenly, war with Iran—bringing with it the biggest spike in oil prices ever. And looming over everything is the still-uncertain impact of artificial intelligence. This week, David C. Barnett, Jay Goltz, and Ted Wolf talk about how all that uncertainty is shaping the decisions owners are making right now—from whether it’s wise to invest in new equipment to how some lenders are demanding that would-be borrowers

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21:36

Dashboard: Does Entrepreneurship Have a Perception...

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/03/13

It does in this sense, says Victor Hwang, founder of Right to Start, an advocacy group that works to expand entrepreneurial opportunity: While starting a business can be daunting, many Americans assume it’s even more daunting than it actually is. For six years, Victor and his organization have tried to address that concern by removing barriers to entry and spreading awareness of entrepreneurial opportunities. In this episode, Victor discusses the progress Right to Start has made, including

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43:19

What’s Harder Now: Getting a Job or Starting a Business?

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/03/10

Despite the waves of uncertainty crashing across the economy, this week we hear from three owners who feel cautiously good about how their year has started. David C. Barnett budgeted for slightly less revenue in 2026, but he’s operating more efficiently and expects to turn a bigger profit. Jaci Russo is hitting her revenue projections—and after implementing a profit-first accounting system, she says the results have been “eye-opening.” And while Lena McGuire isn’t quite on track to meet her

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32:18

Dashboard: Can a Digital Bank Deliver for Business...

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/03/06

In this sponsored conversation, Mike Butler, CEO of Grasshopper Bank, argues that business owners shouldn’t have to choose between speed and stability when it comes to their bank. Grasshopper has no branches, but it does offer full-service lending — with the quick decisions you might expect from an alternative lender and the rates you’d expect from a traditional one.Butler also explains how the bank is using AI to simplify everyday tasks — like finding a specific transaction in seconds instead of

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42:24

When Your Business and Your Values Collide

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/03/03

For the past six years, we’ve done our best to avoid talking politics on this podcast. By focusing on the business realities owners confront every day, we’ve tried to create a space where people with very different perspectives—from different industries and different parts of the country—can still learn from one another. That’s something we take seriously. But we also live in the real world. And lately, the real world has been making that separation harder.On this episode, Paul Downs, Kate Morgan,

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43:51

We Can’t Afford to Wait on AI

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/02/26

A lot of business owners are taking a wait-and-see approach with artificial intelligence. They’ve heard the hype—but they’ve also heard about the slop, the hallucinations, and the research suggesting many AI projects fail to deliver. For plenty of owners, that’s reason enough to assume this might be another passing obsession—like Y2K, Clubhouse, or the metaverse—and to sit back until the dust settles.But not these three owners: David C. Barnett, Jaci Russo, and William Vanderbloemen have decided

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25:17

Dashboard: Searching for Some Tariff Certainty

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/02/24

Yes, says Gene Marks in this week’s Dashboard, the Supreme Court’s tariff decision, while correct, has created a mess. No, you shouldn’t make any plans to spend your tariff refund money. And no, there’s no telling where the Trump administration might be heading. But he does offer this one shred of certainty: For many businesses that have been paying the so-called reciprocal tariffs, if they plan for a 15-percent tariff rate going forward, they’ll probably be in reasonably safe territory.

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36:03

Dashboard: Where Do You Go for Unbiased Exit Advice?

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/02/20

Sooner or later, most business owners run into the same unsettling question: How do I actually get out of this thing? Pass it to family? Sell to a competitor? To key employees? To private equity? To an ESOP or an Employee Ownership Trust? Or maybe just shut it down?There’s no shortage of advice—but almost all of it comes with strings attached. Most advisors know one path best, and not coincidentally, it’s the path they’re paid to promote. Sorting through the options on your own can feel

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52:47

Hot Seat: Three Owners, No Easy Answers

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/02/17

Sometimes the best conversations start with a simple question—and then another, and another. This week, we put Kate Morgan, Jaci Russo, and Ted Wolf in the hot seat and fire away: Are you hiring? Are you finding impressive job candidates? What was the worst job you ever had—and did you learn anything from it? Have you bought crypto? If you had $10,000 a month to spend on marketing, where would it go? Should a marketing agency ever turn its marketing over to another marketing agency? What’s holding

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32:57

Dashboard: Where Do You Turn When You’re Stuck?

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/02/13

Kelly Berry’s introduction to small-business ownership came at a moment when most new parents are focused on something else entirely. She had just come home from the hospital after giving birth when her husband handed her a personal guarantee to sign. He had quit his job to start a business.“So if this fails,” she said, “you’ll be unemployed and we’ll be homeless?”“Yep,” he replied.That moment made the risks of entrepreneurship very real—and it helped set Kelly on the path she’s been on ever since

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46:52

We’re Trying to Outgrow the Valley of Death

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/02/10

Almost every growing business experiences a moment when success starts creating as many problems as it solves. Sales are up. The team is bigger. The product line is broader. And suddenly, the systems that got you here start to break. That’s where Liz Picarazzi finds herself right now. “We’re in the valley of death,” she says. “And we really need help.” Liz’s company, Citibin, made the most recent Inc. 5000 list, but Citibin has also hit that dangerous in-between stage—too big to run on

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30:38

Dashboard: Why Chasing Growth So Often Backfires

21 Hats Podcast ·

2026/02/06

For most business owners, growth is the goal. More customers. More revenue. Bigger numbers. Bigger opportunities. And often, more pressure. But what if the way most of us think about growth is actually setting us up for trouble? Economist Gary Kunkle has spent years studying what really drives business performance. Not in headlines or case studies—but in large sets of real-world data. And what he’s found is that fast, aggressive growth often creates risks that owners don’t see until it’s too

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