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PODCAST

Scaling Laws

Lawfare & University of Texas Law School

Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas and Senior Editor at Lawfare, dive into the intersection of AI, innovation

government politics

All Episodes

49:31

Facts & Myths About AI's Energy Usage with Gavin...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/04/24

In this episode of Scaling Laws, we explore how the "black box" of global greenhouse gas emissions is being cracked open by artificial intelligence and satellite imagery.Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, talks with Gavin McCormick, the founder of ClimateTrace, a global coalition that has revolutionized the process of identifying and quantifying emissions.For decades, climate policy has

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45:28

AI as Abnormal Technology? Scott Sullivan Analyzes AI...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/04/21

Scott Sullivan, professor of law at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and a leading contributor to the Manual on International Law Applicable to Artificial Intelligence in Warfare, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to examine whether AI should be understood as a “normal” or “abnormal” technology.Drawing on his recent article, Sullivan argues that while AI may diffuse slowly and unevenly in civilian

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49:37

Lawfare Daily: Talking About Sam Altman with Ronan...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/04/17

Senior Editor Kate Klonick interviews reporters Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz on their recent article in the New Yorker, titled “Sam Altman May Control Our Future—Can He Be Trusted?” In their 16,000-word piece, Farrow and Marantz create a cohesive narrative with receipts around Sam Altman, the products he's building at OpenAI, and how he's selling them not just to investors and the public, but also to regulators and world leaders.Klonick unpacks three key areas that are discussed in the piece:

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53:06

Why AI Needs Independent Auditors, with Miles Brundage

Scaling Laws ·

2026/04/14

Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Miles Brundage, founding executive director of the AI Verification and Evaluation Research Institute (AVERI) and former senior advisor for AGI readiness at OpenAI, about the state of AI safety and accountability and AVERI's vision for independent third-party auditing of frontier AI companies.The conversation covered the weaknesses of current AI regulations, including California's SB 53 and New York's RAISE Act; why Brundage left OpenAI to

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50:50

Productivity Boom? Labor Shock? Google's Chief...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/04/07

Fabien Curto Millet, Chief Economist at Google, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, to discuss the potential of AI to catalyze a productivity boom while also addressing labor market instability. The three dive into likely changes in AI capabilities as well as ongoing reasons for slow organizational

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43:50

Abundance & AI? Nicholas Bagley Explains

Scaling Laws ·

2026/04/03

Nicholas Bagley, Professor of Law at Michigan Law, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, for a live recording of the podcast in Ann Arbor. Thanks to Graham Hardig and Brinson Elliott for organizing a great event. Professors Bagley and Frazier start by analyzing a recent debate over housing policy before diving into the weeds of the Abundance Agenda, its nexus with AI policy, and what

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46:07

How To Use, Govern, And Lead On AI? Rep. Begich...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/03/31

Representative Nick Begich, Alaska's at-large member of Congress, joins Kevin Frazier, Director the the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss the current state of AI policy on the Hill. As one of the few members of Congress with a background in tech, Rep. Begich offers a unique perspective on this unique and evolving regulatory question. The two also assess how Alaska may be a leader in developing AI

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39:31

Should AI Laws Be Subject To A Higher Standard? The...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/03/27

Kendall Cotton, Founder and CEO of Montana’s Frontier Institute, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss Montana’s groundbreaking Right to Compute Actand how Montana hopes to protect access to AI and related technologies. We will discuss the history and reach of this Act and why other states may want to follow Montana's lead. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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49:56

Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity,...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/03/24

Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni BloomfieldAlan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke withJassi Pannu, assistant professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, andDoni Bloomfield, associate professor of law at Fordham Law School, about their proposed framework for governing biological data to reduce AI-enabled biosecurity risks.The conversation covered the

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25:23

Rapid Response Pod: Trump's New AI Framework with...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/03/21

On Friday, March 20, the Trump Administration announced aNationalPolicy Framework for AI.White House officials have stressed that they want Congress to act on the framework's recommendationswithin the year. What this all means for AI policy is an open question that warrants calling in two of the smartest folks in the business: Helen Toner,Interim Executive Director at Georgetown's Center for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET), and Dean Ball, a senior fellow at the Foundation for American

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53:11

Is AI a Death Sentence for Civic Institutions?, with...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/03/17

Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Woodrow Hartzog, the Andrew R. Randall Professor of Law at Boston University School of Law, and Jessica Silbey, Professor of Law and Honorable Frank R. Kenison Distinguished Scholar in Law at Boston University School of Law, about their new paper"How AI Destroys Institutions,"which argues that AI systems threaten to erode the civic institutions that organize democratic society.The conversation covered the sociological concept of institutions

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46:13

Can AI Enable Human Agency?, with Tomicah Tillemann

Scaling Laws ·

2026/03/13

Tomicah Tillemann, President at Project Liberty Institute, joins the show. Tomicah offers a unique perspective on regulating emerging technology given his time as a venture capitalist and head of policy at Andreessen Horowitz and Haun Ventures. His contemporary focus is on identifying “policy solutions that enable human agency and human flourishing in an AI-powered world.” It’s a tall order that he breaks down with Kevin Frazier, a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, Adjunct Research Fellow at

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58:24

Live from Ashby: Taking a Long View on AI Governance...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/03/10

Kevin Frazier hangs out with Caleb Watney of the Institute for Progress and Austin Carson of SeedAI at the Ashby Workshops to discuss the long-run policy foundations needed for the AI Age.Rather than focusing on near-term regulation, the conversation explores how AI challenges existing assumptions about state capacity, research funding, talent pipelines, and institutional design. Caleb and Austin unpack concepts like meta-science, public compute infrastructure, immigration policy, and congressional

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57:40

Scaling Laws x AI Summer: Who Controls the Machine God?

Scaling Laws ·

2026/03/06

Alan Rozenshtein, associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota and research director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and senior editor at Lawfare, were joined by Dean Ball, senior fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation and author of the Hyperdimensional newsletter, and Timothy B. Lee, author of the Understanding AI newsletter, for a joint crossover episode of the Scaling Laws and AI Summer podcasts about the

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46:06

In Defense of Optimism with Packy McCormick

Scaling Laws ·

2026/03/03

Packy McCormick, founder ofNot Boringand Not Boring Capital, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss the power of narratives in tech, the intersection of investing and policy, and what it means to build frameworks for the future in an age of rapid technological change. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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46:02

The Pentagon Goes to War With Anthropic

Scaling Laws ·

2026/02/27

An impasse is coming to a head. The resolution is unknown. The Department of Defense hasmade clear that Anthropichas until 5:01pm ET today, February 27th, 2026, to permit its use of Claude for any lawful purpose. CEO Dario Amodei doubled down on his insistence that Anthropic tools should not be used for mass domestic surveillance or the operation of lethal autonomous weapons. The Pentagon's Spokesman agrees that such usage would indeed be unlawful and yet, the two parties cannot come to terms. If

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51:43

Can AI Make AI Regulation Cheaper?, with Cullen...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/02/24

Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Cullen O'Keefe, research director at the Institute for Law & AI, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law and senior editor at Lawfare, about their paper,"Automated Compliance and the Regulation of AI"(andassociated Lawfare article), which argues that AI systems can automate many regulatory compliance tasks, loosening the trade-off between safety and innovation in AI policy.The

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47:25

Claude's Constitution, with Amanda Askell

Scaling Laws ·

2026/02/20

Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, senior editor at Lawfare, spoke with Amanda Askell, head of personality alignment at Anthropic, aboutClaude's Constitution: a 20,000-word document that describes the values, character, and ethical framework of Anthropic's flagship AI model and plays a direct role in its training.The conversation covered how the constitution is used during supervised learning and reinforcement learning to shape Claude's behavior; analogies to

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54:35

Live from Ashby: Adaptive AI Governance with Gillian...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/02/17

Kevin Frazier sits down with Andrew Freedman of Fathom and Gillian Hadfield, AI governance scholar, at the Ashby Workshops to examine innovative models for AI regulation.They discuss:Why traditional regulation struggles with rapid AI innovation.The concept of Regulatory Markets and how it aligns with the unique governance challenges posed by AI.Critiques of hybrid governance: concerns about a “race to the bottom,” the limits of soft law on catastrophic risks, and how liability frameworks interact

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58:05

The Persuasion Machine: David Rand on How LLMs Can...

Scaling Laws ·

2026/02/10

Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, and Renee DiResta, associate research professor at Georgetown University's McCourt School of Public Policy and contributing editor at Lawfare, spoke with David Rand, professor of information science, marketing, and psychology at Cornell University.The conversation covered how inattention to accuracy drives misinformation sharing and the effectiveness of accuracy nudges; how AI chatbots can durably reduce conspiracy beliefs through evidence-based

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217 results

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